Transmission and Pinion Angles 1967 Impala Convert - Impala Tech
Transmission & Driveline Transmissions & Differentials

 2Likes
  • 2 Post By lovebohn
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-19-2017, 12:31 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 130
 
Transmission and Pinion Angles 1967 Impala Convert

I have the new zz502, 4L85 and the tranny crossmember installed and was looking to order a new driveshaft. When doing so and getting the dimensions I also looked at the 12 bolt rear end that I installed last year and just assumed the pinion would be pointed up slightly (with full weight of the car on the tires/jack stands) and it was pointing down. I have the tranny at about 3 degrees down and assumed the stock 4 link would be about the same, but at an upward position. When i measured it was around 1.7 to 2.2 degree down also. I had no fuel in the new tank and no additional weight to account for passengers in the car. Is this correct? All of the info i have read normally had the tranny 3 degrees down and the pinion 3 degrees up, leaf spring cars may have more pinion due to the rotation when power is applied. Is there really anything I can do other than buying adjustable links? The bushings are the poly Energy Suspension ones and have been in the rear for over 10 years now and also with the old 10 bolt.
lovebohn is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-19-2017, 05:22 PM
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,426
 
Ya you are pretty much done at this point. It is a little better with more altitude but no one like a car that runs at the factory ride height as it is currently unfashionable. If you get a vibration due to pinion angle you can install a constant velocity joint in your rear drive shaft to remove the vibration induced by a universal joint.

Big Dave
Big Dave is offline  
post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-19-2017, 10:04 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 130
 
The lower control arms have two mounting holes. I have the bottom ones and after looking at the assembly manual it did have a late 1967 update to use the top ones for all cars other than wagons. Will this help to zero out the angle??
lovebohn is offline  
 
post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-20-2017, 10:56 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 130
 
Here is a link to the image if that helps at all.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/CT3CCuzG3dpFLlRF2
lovebohn is offline  
post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-20-2017, 12:14 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 156
 
I also have a 67 Impala with a ZZ502 and a 12 bolt. My trans is a 700R4.


Looking at the Chassis Manual and the Assembly Manual, they both say "Top holes for all except wagons & F41.


Mine is a SS hardtop with the standard susp. I am currently redoing a lot of stuff including the rear suspension. My rear lower control arms fronts were in the lower holes and all indications from the totally shot condition of the bushings appear to be that they were always there? I am currently upgrading the rear susp to an F41 so they will remain in the lower holes. I replaced the shot bushings with new rubber ones. Drilled the sway bar mounting holes and completely boxed in the lower arms.


My pinion angle is also pointed down, which surprised me as well! But when I get it on the road I guess I'll find out.


By the way, different trans, but my driveshaft has a GM3R front u-joint & a 1330 rear and measures 58.25" from u-joint center to center.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	P1050858.jpg
Views:	31
Size:	47.7 KB
ID:	18393  
sz0k30 is offline  
post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-20-2017, 12:39 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 130
 
Thanks for the info on your setup. I might try the top hole and see what it does, I'm sure like everything else it might be a royal PIA to get the bolt holes lined up.

I talked with Inland drive shafts yesterday and it looks like since my rear diff yoke is only the 1310 he was going to do the same size in the front. I think my distance 59-5/8" from the end of the spline to the face of the yoke. My other concern i the u-joint clearance on the tranny since since the crossmember is so close compare to the long nose on the old 700R4 I removed.
lovebohn is offline  
post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-21-2017, 09:51 AM
BA.
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Miamisburg, Oh.
Posts: 3,154
Blog Entries: 15
 
Is there any reason you do not want to get adjustable upper control arms from a place like Hotchkis? (or BMR or GW)
I can understand cost to a degree, but, it sounds like you need them.

HOW A NOVICE REBUILDS A 66 IMPALA CONVERTIBLE:
http://www.impalas.net/forums/blog.php?u=1432
BA. is offline  
post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-21-2017, 10:10 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 130
 
Yes, cost is the biggest thing. I just find it odd that everything in the rear is stock and it sits wrong. I only put a few hundred miles on this new rear end last summer but never had a problem with the old driveshaft.

Can you shim the upper control arms to turn the angle up? Or will that need a shortened lower arm to account for the change.
lovebohn is offline  
post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-21-2017, 12:06 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 130
 
Would i have to get a new lower arm too or just the adjustable upper. If that is the case UMI was the first one I looked at and it was only a $250 or so. I could eat that just to get this car on the road. Any problem with these aftermarket arms? One better than the other?
lovebohn is offline  
post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-21-2017, 04:38 PM
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,426
 
Hotchkiss is made in America. Designed by American Engineers and tested by Mary Pozzi in actual race conditions. The other brands are Chinese copies of the Hotckiss part painted a different color so no one would know they are stealing intellectual property.

If you box your lower arms and install polyurethane bushings it will work just fine. A ZZ502 is going to have three times the torque of a 409 from the same era and will tear up the worn out (rotten) rubber bushings.

As far as the down angle on the pinion, remember that you have a two piece drive shaft. You are not going to get the phase angle vibrations that you would have in a one piece drive shaft.

Big Dave
Big Dave is offline  
post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-21-2017, 05:01 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 282
 
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Dave View Post
Hotchkiss is made in America. Designed by American Engineers and tested by Mary Pozzi in actual race conditions. The other brands are Chinese copies of the Hotckiss part painted a different color so no one would know they are stealing intellectual property.
I strongly disagree. Hotchkis was a thing in 90's because they had the market to them selves. Nowadays they are considered overpriced and outdated. There are other American companies offering BETTER quality, better design, for less money and also MADE IN USA!!! I have UMI control arms and adjustable pan hard bar on my 67. Extremely happy with quality of parts, ride quality and their customer service.

Also UMI guys are always on chevelle forum and are always helping guys even if it doesn't involve a transaction, they will be happy to answer any questions if you give them a call. I don't see hothckis doing that anywhere.

Here are the adjustable uppers from UMI. UMI 67-70 upper control arm
For $119 you can't beat them, made in Philipsburg, PA.

Last edited by 67SS; 07-21-2017 at 05:17 PM.
67SS is offline  
post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-21-2017, 05:04 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 282
 
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Dave View Post

As far as the down angle on the pinion, remember that you have a two piece drive shaft. You are not going to get the phase angle vibrations that you would have in a one piece drive shaft.
2 piece driveshaft was only on 1958-1964 Impalas.
67SS is offline  
post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-21-2017, 05:32 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 156
 
I'm not really sure of this (so take it for however little its worth), but the lower control arm locates the rear axle. The upper control arm is the one that determines the pinion angle. The lower control arm is 22.5" on all 65 thru 70's. The upper arm on 67's is 10". If your control arms match these dimensions don't assume something is wrong. If you do enough googling you will find that there are different acceptable driveline orientations. One thing I have never found in all my searching is the factory driveline angles and orientations.






sz0k30 is offline  
post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-21-2017, 06:04 PM
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,426
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 67SS View Post
2 piece driveshaft was only on 1958-1964 Impalas.
Yes I agree. I thought for some reason his car was a '64. Sorry for the mis information.

1965-'70 was all the same series and used a single long drive shaft and parallel four link control arms with a Panhard bar to center the rear end.

1971'-'76 B-bodies where the largest and heaviest made by GM. They used the same suspension parts as the earlier 1965-'70 Impalas. Wasn't until 1977 that the Impala got the same triangulated four link system as was first used under the 1964 Chevelle. Of course by that time the Impala was the same size as the earlier A-body car dimensionally if not a tad heavier due to added safety features.

If I'm not mistaken somewhere around 1966-'68 that the control arms changed their length. Can not remember what year it was but past that break the control arms are different and do not interchange.

Big Dave
Big Dave is offline  
post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-21-2017, 07:20 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 156
 
I've been doing a lot of Googling since I know I saw this somewhere before & I finally found it! There are 2, 1 piece driveshaft configurations. The "Z" and the "W".
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DRIVELINE ANGLES.jpg
Views:	47
Size:	26.9 KB
ID:	18457  
sz0k30 is offline  
post #16 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-22-2017, 11:36 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 130
 
Yes mine is a 1967 not a 64 so I do have the single piece drive shaft.

I ordered the upper arm from UMI...great people to work with and yes 100% made in Penn. So after swapping that mid next week I will adjust and get the drive shaft on order from Inland Empire. They recommend the 3.5" aluminum just for the weight and less stress on the tranny. I could save a few bucks and go steel too. I can do any u joint in the front but for some reason the back is the smaller yoke but could do the 1350 conversion. That u joint is not the sealed so my weak point will be that rear point. Better there than the front slip joint. They don't do the 1330 so it 1310 it 1350. Any reason not to go bigger?
lovebohn is offline  
post #17 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-23-2017, 09:41 AM
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,426
 
I don't think you would need a 1410, that is more for rock crawling or a city bus.
There should be a forges steel 1350 rear pinion yoke available from Moser or Strange for the 10 bolt; and I know there is one available for the 12 bolt.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Moser/718/PY10...EaAnO-EALw_wcB

http://www.jegs.com/i/Moroso/710/858...caAkCEEALw_wcB

Big Dave
Big Dave is offline  
post #18 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-23-2017, 10:01 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 130
 
I really didn't want to mess around putting a new yoke on the rear at this point since doing the crush sleeve and preload was so much easier with the whole rear end out. So my thinking was the 1350 slip on the front with the solid 1350 u-joint, then the rear pinion yoke is the small 1310 (on a 12 bolt for some reason) but do the driveshaft with the 1350 also and just use the 1310 to 1350 conversion u-joint. It adds a little money to the build and my only real concern is the clearance I have on the front u-joint and my crossmember...it will be close. This way if need be I could replace the yoke at some point and not have the have the drive shaft cut and changed. I might go this route unless anyone feels the 1310 solid in the front and rear are more than enough.

No a 1410 is way overkill I wasn't really thinking of going that big. Just comparing a solid 1310 vs the 1350 conversion u joints.
lovebohn is offline  
post #19 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-23-2017, 11:21 PM
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,426
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovebohn View Post
I really didn't want to mess around putting a new yoke on the rear at this point since doing the crush sleeve and preload was so much easier with the whole rear end out. So my thinking was the 1350 slip on the front with the solid 1350 u-joint, then the rear pinion yoke is the small 1310 (on a 12 bolt for some reason) but do the driveshaft with the 1350 also and just use the 1310 to 1350 conversion u-joint. It adds a little money to the build and my only real concern is the clearance I have on the front u-joint and my crossmember...it will be close. This way if need be I could replace the yoke at some point and not have the have the drive shaft cut and changed. I might go this route unless anyone feels the 1310 solid in the front and rear are more than enough.

No a 1410 is way overkill I wasn't really thinking of going that big. Just comparing a solid 1310 vs the 1350 conversion u joints.
You do not have to recrush the sleeve. You just need 15-17 inch pounds of drag on a beam type torque wrench as you rotate the nut to get the pinion nut tightened correctly. (you also need thread sealant on the threads (that is not part of the factory assembly procedure) to prevent a drip or two of gear lube every month, but I can live with the mess so I just measure it with LocTite on the threads instead of sealant.

Big Dave
Big Dave is offline  
post #20 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-04-2017, 03:40 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 130
 
I talked with UMI who was great to work with and got their adjustable upper control. I now have it close to the 3 degrees I needed and can tweak if need be after everything in up and running and it's just easier on a 4 post lift compared to the 2 post its on now. I did need to use a lot of adjustment and might mess with some 3/8" shims to gain some threads back since it weakens the mounts my extending them out. I may change the pinion to go 1350 on both ends, but for now I have the 1310 to 1350 u-joint to get by for this year....or two.
BA. and 67SS like this.
lovebohn is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Impala Tech forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome