The S-I-L's 66 Caprice Engine Bay Restro - Page 7 - Impala Tech
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post #151 of 183 (permalink) Old 04-30-2016, 08:13 PM Thread Starter
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The S-I-L's 66 Caprice Engine Rebuild Update #5

Here's an update, and this is what I concerned about. Look closely at the lifters and where they are riding on the cam. The cam is centered in the bearings
I DO NOT know who made the cam or what cam this is. All I do know it's a solid lifter cam other than that ???????.

Do I continue to use this cam or get a cam and lifter set up from a reputable company. I like Comp Cams, The S-I-L doesn't like the ticking of the solid lifters and will want to go hydraulic. But, I believe we'll want to have a little punch, if you know what I mean....


These pictures are back to front looking at the driver side head.










These pictures are back to front looking at the passenger side head.








I'll be waiting on some feedback please. Thanks


Until next time....


Chris

Chris
Warrenton, OR
'68 CJ-5 - Sold
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'10 Camaro
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post #152 of 183 (permalink) Old 04-30-2016, 09:05 PM
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Looks like you have a few lobes going flat. You can replace both cam and lifters easily enough BUT all of that worn metal that used to make up your cam lobes is now embedded in your bearings and floating around in the oil galleries. (just imagine what pouring a bag of metal filings into an engine would do to it).
That is why I switched over to roller cams back in the early seventies. I got tired of pulling and engine out and rebuilding it because a cam went flat. The price of a solid roller cam and lifter was a lot less than the price of the rebuild. I tell every one that has a flat tappet not to run them with todays motor oil; but I was having problems with even the good motor oil that was full of DZZP in the early seventies because my valve springs where stiffer than stock.


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post #153 of 183 (permalink) Old 05-03-2016, 12:38 PM Thread Starter
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Well Big Dave I owe you a cookie. I don't know how you could see there's wear on the cam, but you hit the nail on the head. I finally pulled the cam last night and had difficulty getting the #7 piston exhaust lifter out and the #4 piston exhaust lifter out of their bores. I had to push them out through the bottom.


Those 2 lifters show signs of wear. This cam was on its way out and wouldn't have lasted much longer. And YES, this engine was run without the ZDDP additive. But it will have the additive from here on out.







The S-I-L found all of the paperwork from when the engine was rebuilt. The "solid" lifter cam wasn't a solid lifter cam to begin with. It's a hydraulic cam from Crane Cams. It's their 350 HP factory cam. The ex-hubby decided he liked the ticking of the lifters. Which only shortened the life of the cam and lifters.





I went to Comp Cams website and found a cam I think will be very fitting for the car. It's the 454 LS6 cam. this is what has been ordered. It will have the oil groove cut into the cam.


11-670-4 - NOSTALGIA PLUS Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshafts




Until next time.....

Chris
Warrenton, OR
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post #154 of 183 (permalink) Old 05-13-2016, 07:18 AM
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Way late seeing this Chris, but that cam may need a stall converter. That is a bit much for a stock one to idle in gear.

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post #155 of 183 (permalink) Old 05-13-2016, 08:52 AM
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That isn't any where close to an LS-6 450 horse 454 cam. That cam was the same cam used in the 375 horse 396-402 and it was a mechanical flat tappet cam.

The LS-6 cam's casting number is 3904366 with identifying casting mark of "OMO" , and it was a lot more aggressive than this Crane hydraulic "sounds like" cam. It required much stiffer valve springs to control the larger high performance head's valves as it would rev to 7,800 RPM in the 396 version.

The advertised specs for an LS-6 factory cam were 0.520"/0.520" of valve lift at 0.028" hot lash and with duration of 316/302 on an LSA of 114. It used the stock Corvette (2,200 RPM stall) torque converter if it was equipped with a TH400, but most came in front of a four speed. A standard passenger car torque converter stalls at 1,800 RPM.

This Crane hydraulic is more show than go, and is actually a little small for a 454, but just right for a 396-402.

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post #156 of 183 (permalink) Old 05-13-2016, 10:16 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost in the 60's View Post
Way late seeing this Chris, but that cam may need a stall converter. That is a bit much for a stock one to idle in gear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Dave View Post
That isn't any where close to an LS-6 450 horse 454 cam. That cam was the same cam used in the 375 horse 396-402 and it was a mechanical flat tappet cam.

The LS-6 cam's casting number is 3904366 with identifying casting mark of "OMO" , and it was a lot more aggressive than this Crane hydraulic "sounds like" cam. It required much stiffer valve springs to control the larger high performance head's valves as it would rev to 7,800 RPM in the 396 version.

The advertised specs for an LS-6 factory cam were 0.520"/0.520" of valve lift at 0.028" hot lash and with duration of 316/302 on an LSA of 114. It used the stock Corvette (2,200 RPM stall) torque converter if it was equipped with a TH400, but most came in front of a four speed. A standard passenger car torque converter stalls at 1,800 RPM.

This Crane hydraulic is more show than go, and is actually a little small for a 454, but just right for a 396-402.

Big Dave


Its all good. I figured you guys would get around to seeing it.
I put a 2000 stall in when I had the motor out the first time.
The cam isn't ground yet, I just called. It'll be another week or so. So if you guys could suggest something quickly that would be great.


Dave, you said the cam is the same as the 375 horse, which cam? Comps or Cranes? 'Cause I'd be good with that.

Chris
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post #157 of 183 (permalink) Old 05-13-2016, 05:02 PM
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Personally I favor a cam to build bottom end and mid range torque over a who can make the most peak horsepower.


the BBC has an absolutely horrible exhaust port. It is the cork in the engines ability to breathe. This is why the majority of aftermarket heads raise and straighten the exhaust port. You can assist this by using a split duration cam with more duration on the exhaust side. Many or better stated all of the cam grinders offer a cam that extends the exhaust duration to make more noise at idle (think of CompCams VooDoo series or Lunati's Thumper cams). Anther page to examine in the cam catalog (you can down load a pdf copy of most can grinders) is the RV and towing cams. These are all stump pullers as they need all the power they can generate to get a lot of mass moving.


I will close with stating that a wider LSA (112 to 116 degrees) will quiet the idle noise and build more power down lower in the RPM range.


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post #158 of 183 (permalink) Old 05-16-2016, 05:47 PM Thread Starter
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I decided to pull the rod and main bearing caps last Sunday. Everything is as it should be, little to no wear on the bearings.
I put everything back together and re-torqued to factory spec. I even replaced the oil pump shaft coupling.

Chris
Warrenton, OR
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post #159 of 183 (permalink) Old 05-16-2016, 07:15 PM
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It's good to know the wear didn't happen on start up after removal. That happened over time and miles.

Now you can move forward without wondering "what if"...

'62 Impala SS 409 TH350
'66 Chevelle SS 496 M20
'70 Chevelle SS 396 M20
'67 Camaro ss/rs 350 PG
'38 Chev coupe street rod
'54 Chev 210 2 door
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post #160 of 183 (permalink) Old 05-17-2016, 10:23 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost in the 60's View Post
It's good to know the wear didn't happen on start up after removal. That happened over time and miles.

Now you can move forward without wondering "what if"...
True That! Now I just need the cam. I'm going to call Comp Cams now to see if they have even started on it. I called Summit last night, they have a bunch in stock. The only problem is I need to have the groove cut into the cam support.

Chris
Warrenton, OR
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post #161 of 183 (permalink) Old 05-18-2016, 10:55 AM Thread Starter
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I called Comp Cams again yesterday to check on the order. The guy told me it was in production. I asked what the difference was between the CL11-670-4 and the CL11-671-4 and he said the cam was a bit larger in duration.
So this morning I looked up the part number on their website. Problem is the CL11-671-4 is a solid lifter cam, Not what I wanted...So I called Comp Cams back and they were getting ready to ship the cam today, so now they'll be sending me the CL11-670-4 instead. The guy put a rush on getting the groove cut into the cam. Hopefully it'll ship this week.

Chris
Warrenton, OR
'68 CJ-5 - Sold
'74 Nova
'10 Camaro

Last edited by jayhawk500; 05-18-2016 at 11:32 AM.
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post #162 of 183 (permalink) Old 05-22-2016, 11:08 AM Thread Starter
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So after my call last week to Comp Cams discovering that they were going to send me a solid lifter cam...I received the hydraulic lifter cam yesterday. But that was really short lived. Went to I opened the box, The first thing I looked for was the groove that was to be machined into the last bearing lobe.
Damn....No groove. Called Comp, already closed, damn. Now I have to wait till Monday. Going to ask to have another cam shipped out overnight. I needed to have this done before next weekend.


Until next time....

Chris
Warrenton, OR
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post #163 of 183 (permalink) Old 05-22-2016, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayhawk500 View Post
So after my call last week to Comp Cams discovering that they were going to send me a solid lifter cam...I received the hydraulic lifter cam yesterday. But that was really short lived. Went to I opened the box, The first thing I looked for was the groove that was to be machined into the last bearing lobe.
Damn....No groove. .
sorry to hear this, Chris.

'62 Impala SS 409 TH350
'66 Chevelle SS 496 M20
'70 Chevelle SS 396 M20
'67 Camaro ss/rs 350 PG
'38 Chev coupe street rod
'54 Chev 210 2 door
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'89 Chev R3500 roll back
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post #164 of 183 (permalink) Old 05-22-2016, 11:57 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost in the 60's View Post
sorry to hear this, Chris.
Oh well, it'll be 3 weeks this Tuesday. What's another few days?........I'm also, going to make them put a return shipping label in the box at their expense. Their screw up, not mine.

Chris
Warrenton, OR
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post #165 of 183 (permalink) Old 06-07-2016, 08:55 PM Thread Starter
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The S-I-L's 66 Caprice Engine Rebuild Update #6

Well, after a solid month of waiting on Comp Cams...The engine is finally together and back in the car. But now I have a new problem, The motor mounts I got off eBay for an Impala 427 don't quite fit a Caprice with a 396. It's just one of those things that make you go, HUMMMMM?
Anyway I called NAPA and will have another mount set here tomorrow morning. The goal is to have the car running by the end of the weekend.





I'll post up the cam card on the next update.


Until next time....

Chris
Warrenton, OR
'68 CJ-5 - Sold
'74 Nova
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post #166 of 183 (permalink) Old 06-07-2016, 09:13 PM
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Was wondering about the cam situation.

The frame stands appear quite tall and weren't designed to work with the safety lock mounts you now have. I'm thinking you can't get the thru bolt holes to line up ? The block dimensions between the 396 and 427 are identical, so any alignment issues lie with the stands.

I talked with my engine builder today about my LS5 and it should be done in the next few weeks...

'62 Impala SS 409 TH350
'66 Chevelle SS 496 M20
'70 Chevelle SS 396 M20
'67 Camaro ss/rs 350 PG
'38 Chev coupe street rod
'54 Chev 210 2 door
'69 Chev C10
'89 Chev R3500 roll back
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post #167 of 183 (permalink) Old 06-07-2016, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost in the 60's View Post
Was wondering about the cam situation.

The frame stands appear quite tall and weren't designed to work with the safety lock mounts you now have. I'm thinking you can't get the thru bolt holes to line up ? The block dimensions between the 396 and 427 are identical, so any alignment issues lie with the stands.

I talked with my engine builder today about my LS5 and it should be done in the next few weeks...

Or the motor mounts:


http://www.jegs.com/photos/355-earlystyle.jpg


There are two different mounts made covering 1958-68 and
from 1969-'72. Most parts stores think there was only one but they do not line up because there is a short and wide and a tall and skinny.

Big Dave
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post #168 of 183 (permalink) Old 06-08-2016, 03:22 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost in the 60's View Post
Was wondering about the cam situation.

The frame stands appear quite tall and weren't designed to work with the safety lock mounts you now have. I'm thinking you can't get the thru bolt holes to line up ? The block dimensions between the 396 and 427 are identical, so any alignment issues lie with the stands.

I talked with my engine builder today about my LS5 and it should be done in the next few weeks...

The frame stands are the OEM stands. OEM motor, the only difference is the engine mount itself, and yes, the bolt holes don't line up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Dave View Post
Or the motor mounts:


http://www.jegs.com/photos/355-earlystyle.jpg


There are two different mounts made covering 1958-68 and
from 1969-'72. Most parts stores think there was only one but they do not line up because there is a short and wide and a tall and skinny.

Big Dave


I got another set of mounts like I hade before. I know there's a gap issue, so I'm going to add washers to take up the slop so I can torque them down.
If that don't work then its on to energy suspension mounts.

Chris
Warrenton, OR
'68 CJ-5 - Sold
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'10 Camaro
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post #169 of 183 (permalink) Old 06-08-2016, 06:49 PM
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What happened to the mounts that were in there when you thought it was done and ready to leave ..

'62 Impala SS 409 TH350
'66 Chevelle SS 496 M20
'70 Chevelle SS 396 M20
'67 Camaro ss/rs 350 PG
'38 Chev coupe street rod
'54 Chev 210 2 door
'69 Chev C10
'89 Chev R3500 roll back
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post #170 of 183 (permalink) Old 06-09-2016, 03:14 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost in the 60's View Post
What happened to the mounts that were in there when you thought it was done and ready to leave ..
The mounts were soooo wide when I went to torque down the nut it squished the sides in. This time I put washers on the inside of the mount to prevent that from happening again.

Chris
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post #171 of 183 (permalink) Old 06-09-2016, 04:05 PM
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You are using the wrong year motor mounts if they are top wide you need the thin ones. Motor mounts were changed in 1968 due to a recall of defective motor mounts.


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post #172 of 183 (permalink) Old 06-10-2016, 11:46 PM Thread Starter
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The S-I-L's 66 Caprice Engine Rebuild Update #7

IT'S ALIVE!!!!!


It's been 2 long days after work, but I got it running. I let it run for the 30 minutes necessary to break in the cam. Tomorrow I'll change the oil as recommended by Comp. Then I need to correct a few small things that happened during re-assemble. I bent the $40 fuel filter when I tightened up the flare nut on the fuel line, I re-installed the OEM temp sender which doesn't work and I need to retard the dizzy one tooth. Other than that...It sounds great. I'm going to have to adjust the valves while it's running to get rid of the small amount of ticking it still has.


At the end of yesterday.





Today...









Chris
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post #173 of 183 (permalink) Old 06-11-2016, 12:04 AM
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Looks good, once again..

If you can't turn the dizzy far enough in one direction to get the timing, you can rotate the plug wires one tower around in that same direction and turn the dizzy back the other way to get the timing set. The wires won't be in the traditional location in regards to the point adjustment cover, but if that isn't a big deal this works...

'62 Impala SS 409 TH350
'66 Chevelle SS 496 M20
'70 Chevelle SS 396 M20
'67 Camaro ss/rs 350 PG
'38 Chev coupe street rod
'54 Chev 210 2 door
'69 Chev C10
'89 Chev R3500 roll back
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post #174 of 183 (permalink) Old 06-11-2016, 12:10 AM
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I don't remember if you said what oil you're using, if it has the zink in it or you use a ZDDP additive with the flat tappet cam ??

'62 Impala SS 409 TH350
'66 Chevelle SS 496 M20
'70 Chevelle SS 396 M20
'67 Camaro ss/rs 350 PG
'38 Chev coupe street rod
'54 Chev 210 2 door
'69 Chev C10
'89 Chev R3500 roll back
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post #175 of 183 (permalink) Old 06-11-2016, 10:56 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost in the 60's View Post
I don't remember if you said what oil you're using, if it has the zink in it or you use a ZDDP additive with the flat tappet cam ??
Currently its conventional oil with the Comp Cams break in oil. The oil change today will be the same.
In 500 miles it'll be the same again, but with the ZDDP additive from Lucas Oil.

Chris
Warrenton, OR
'68 CJ-5 - Sold
'74 Nova
'10 Camaro
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