My 61 Restore Erath County Texas - Page 2 - Impala Tech
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post #26 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-22-2018, 10:58 AM Thread Starter
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Also ... will the 700r4 remain "engaged" through a deceleration? IE engine braking?

Wifee had a 97 Tahoe ... so the 4L60e? ... IDK who thought it was a good idea to "coast" below 40 mph, but that (and the lack of driver energy management) caused me to replace brake pads every 20-30K miles! (lots of city driving at that time)

I'd rather the clutches remain engaged like in my F350's "tow mode" and downshift than for the tranny to "let go." Gonna have a reasonably high torque engine. Should be able to use that in both directions of speed change.

Thanks.

1961 Impala. 4 door. 283, turbo 350. Imron Midnight blue metallic with silver stripe.

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Last edited by shaark92; 03-22-2018 at 10:59 AM. Reason: typo correction
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post #27 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-22-2018, 11:09 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadwolf View Post
I wouldn't worry so much about the low gear ratio portion of the system, I would look more into the cruising RPM in overdrive of the engine. If at 65 MPH your down around 1500 RPM you may be out of your engines power range resulting in excessive down shifts and up shifts.


I really want to go with a stick, but after doing my research I can get everything I need to go to a 200R4 for around $2500 new and then everything is a bolt in affair. No drive shaft mods needed. That is going with the stage one kit for 550 HP motors. I will be hard pressed to put an overdrive manual in my car at twice that cost.
RIGHT! I don't like downshifts to pull a grade.

Now I'm confused again. (happens a lot! :P ) .... from your transdepot site, the 700r4 500HP rated is about $200 less than the 550HP rated 200r4 ... the crossmember mod for my car is about $160 ... probably a couple hundo for the labor to shorten the drive shaft ... where does $2500 enter???

Also ... the gear ratios for the 700r4 listed on this link you provided (thanks again) show "Gear ratios of the 700R4 are: 3.06, 1.62, 1.00, 0.70, 2.29"

huh? How is Overdrive almost the same ratio as first?

Noted is the 200r4's 4th gear is actually higher than the 700r4's ... first blush, it appears the 700r4 will run a higher RPM than the 200r4 (in high gear)

1961 Impala. 4 door. 283, turbo 350. Imron Midnight blue metallic with silver stripe.

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Last edited by shaark92; 03-22-2018 at 11:11 AM. Reason: typo
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post #28 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-22-2018, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaark92 View Post
Also ... will the 700r4 remain "engaged" through a deceleration? IE engine braking?

Wifee had a 97 Tahoe ... so the 4L60e? ... IDK who thought it was a good idea to "coast" below 40 mph, but that (and the lack of driver energy management) caused me to replace brake pads every 20-30K miles! (lots of city driving at that time)

I'd rather the clutches remain engaged like in my F350's "tow mode" and downshift than for the tranny to "let go." Gonna have a reasonably high torque engine. Should be able to use that in both directions of speed change.

Thanks.
The only automatic that could brake an engine was the old style PowerGlide that had a front and a REAR pump. It was the rear pump used to push start the car that caused engine braking. Otherwise the planetary transmission which drives the car, but can not be driven (it will free wheel), that prevents engine braking in all cars with an automatic. The 15% to 17% parasitic drag due to friction will eventually slow the car down, but then again so will sticking your foot out the door.

"Tow Mode" disengages the transmission's ability to lock up the torque converter. This adds to the parasitic drag by adding the the fluid friction of the torque converter to the mechanical friction of all of the rotating parts in the transmission.

The drag of the torque converter is greatest in a stock stall speed tranny and decreases as the stall speed increases in a racing torque convert so there would be less engine braking due to parasitic drag (while loosing more energy to heating the tranny fluid due to slipping when driving).

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post #29 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-22-2018, 01:01 PM Thread Starter
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Ok. All I know is that the f350 uses engine braking in tow mode and even downshifts as rpm gets near idle. The Tahoe wouldn’t engine brake at less than 40 mph unless Overdrive was locked out. Ditto the 4R100 in the 2000 f350.

In the 2011 f350, the TC locks between 3rd and 4th.

Anyway. Great info. Thanks.

1961 Impala. 4 door. 283, turbo 350. Imron Midnight blue metallic with silver stripe.

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post #30 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-22-2018, 03:37 PM Thread Starter
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I found a calculator. If I did it correctly, I can expect 1878 rpm at 70 mph with a overdrive ratio of .7, a 3.08 differential and 235/55r17 tire.

Searched for a power curve which would show a 383 at 1800-2000 RPM .... couldn’t find it but the tamest setup at 3000 was still 360 ft lb.

Since the curve is pretty flat on 383torque, I’m gonna estimate well over 250 ft lbs which should be adequate for cruising.

Am I ate up?

https://www.ringpinion.com/calculators/Calc_RPM.aspx

1961 Impala. 4 door. 283, turbo 350. Imron Midnight blue metallic with silver stripe.

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post #31 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-22-2018, 05:00 PM
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Very few dyno pulls are made below 2,400 RPM because most engines stall when the water brake is engaged (listen to YouTube videos of dyno runs for the drop in engine RPM when the water brake clutch is engaged). Takes a pretty large displacement big block to test down that low. Most small blocks are tested above 3,200 RPM (small displacement motors are usually class racing engines with a radical cam so they usually start testing at 4,000 RPM).

I have built a lot of motors, and tested most of them on an engine dyno before letting them go to my customers.

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post #32 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-22-2018, 06:33 PM Thread Starter
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Ah ... I thought they were just posting the maximums. So what's the best way to predict if a 3.08 behind a 700r4 with a 383 is short enough to prevent downshifting on an uphill grade?

1961 Impala. 4 door. 283, turbo 350. Imron Midnight blue metallic with silver stripe.

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post #33 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-22-2018, 08:00 PM
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It's an automatic. Let the programming (the valve body) figure it out for you automatically.

I have a 6L80 in my truck and I can not tell when it shifts up or down, it is so smooth. Only way I would know would be to put in manual and push the shift button as the tach shift points.

Besides your not likely to even notice with a 383 displacement.

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Last edited by Big Dave; 03-22-2018 at 11:59 PM.
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post #34 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-22-2018, 10:45 PM Thread Starter
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Guess I'll find out. Thought there might be a precise way, given I'm departing from OEM ...

did that with the 3 speed manual and it was WAY too highly geared with the (3.08) rear end. I could run 80 in 2nd without getting nervous about a tachless overrev.

1961 Impala. 4 door. 283, turbo 350. Imron Midnight blue metallic with silver stripe.

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post #35 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-23-2018, 03:39 PM
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If it wasn't so cold here in Ohio still getting some snow, I would go for a test drive and give you some comparative data with definitive RPMs. I have mild 383 with a 5-speed.


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HOW A NOVICE REBUILDS A 66 IMPALA CONVERTIBLE:
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post #36 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-24-2018, 09:05 PM Thread Starter
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A tech from Blueprint thought the 3.08 would cause the 700r4 to downshift on a grade ... so, I may look for either an other complete rear differential at 3.55 rear end/gear set (pinion/ring?) if I can change the ones in the existing case.

Thanks BA ... look forward to hearing about it. It’ll warm-up long before I have to make a decision on ordering.

1961 Impala. 4 door. 283, turbo 350. Imron Midnight blue metallic with silver stripe.

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post #37 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-25-2018, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaark92 View Post
RIGHT! I don't like downshifts to pull a grade.

Now I'm confused again. (happens a lot! :P ) .... from your transdepot site, the 700r4 500HP rated is about $200 less than the 550HP rated 200r4 ... the crossmember mod for my car is about $160 ... probably a couple hundo for the labor to shorten the drive shaft ... where does $2500 enter???
I was looking at the 200R4 Stage 1 complete conversion kit for $1795.
https://www.transdepot.net/2004R-Sta...age_p_412.html

This kit includes the odds and ends:
Edelbrock or Holley Linkage, TV Cable, Speedometer, Mount, Dust Cover, Dipstick & Tube, Throttle Bracket, Torque Converter Bolts, Lock Up Wiring Kit, Hayden Cooler, 2 Can Cooler Flush

I have a floor console so I need a special shifter from Shiftworks for a 4 speed console shifter $295
SHIFTWORKS -1963 and Earlier Impala

59-64 Chevy Impala Bowtie Overdrives XMXF59642 Transmission Crossmember 200R $205
https://www.ebay.com/itm/59-64-Chevy...-/281987607522

Total $2,295 and then you throw in all the shipping costs and you are probably a little over $2500.00
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post #38 of 86 (permalink) Old 04-20-2018, 12:36 PM Thread Starter
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Spent my first dollar on this project ... for the very last item which will be installed ...

An emblem memorializing Pops ... his driver’s license signature on a black Chevy bow tie ... which will be placed just below the impala emblem on the dash.

Emblemart.com

1961 Impala. 4 door. 283, turbo 350. Imron Midnight blue metallic with silver stripe.

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post #39 of 86 (permalink) Old 05-17-2018, 07:25 PM Thread Starter
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OK ... I'm seeing different configurations of a 4 door sedan.

what is the proper names for these different tops? mine has the "slicked-back" style, but I'm seeing a more "conventional"

I was only aware of the two door bubble top and my 4 door sedan.

Thanks.

1961 Impala. 4 door. 283, turbo 350. Imron Midnight blue metallic with silver stripe.

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post #40 of 86 (permalink) Old 05-17-2018, 11:49 PM
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There is also the 4-Dr Hardtop which the factory likes to call a "Sport Sedan". We just simply call them 4-Dr HardTops, lol. (No Posts cars)

By the way, I like the Factory Air in your car. Kind of rare for a '61.

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post #41 of 86 (permalink) Old 05-21-2018, 10:08 AM Thread Starter
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OK ...

so this blue one is a "Sport Sedan" ... aka 4Dr Hardtop

and the black one is ... what? simply 4 door sedan?

Thanks.

Perhaps it's because MINE is the latter, but I like it better. Looks faster.

Yeah, I'm finding the "factory air" is pretty rare. Of course, in my specific car, the only part of the "factory" which will remain is the registers in the cabin ... all the other will be replaced by the Vintage Air components. But ... according to the rep at the Good Guys show in March this year at Texas Motor Speedway ... we'll be CHILL even on a August afternoon in Texas!
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post #42 of 86 (permalink) Old 05-21-2018, 12:33 PM
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The "B" pillar (the post in the middle) makes it a sedan (preceded with the number of doors, such as a four door sedan). Without a "B" pillar it is called a Coupe (in this case Chevy called it a four door sport coupe).

There are a lot of other names that describe car bodies but they are archaic left over from the days of wooden horse drawn carriages such as calling a convertible a cabriolet (there is a slight difference in the windshield that determines the difference). But most call a '32 Ford soft top a roadster when in truth it is actually a cabriolet.

I am ancient; but I wasn't around in '32, despite what many think. My dad who is still alive and well, was born in '22 (but he would have been too young to get married in '32). Seen a lot of changes in car styling in my life time, not all to my liking. I miss Harley Earl.

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post #43 of 86 (permalink) Old 05-21-2018, 12:52 PM Thread Starter
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so we have a 2 door sedan ... 2 door bubble top ... 4 door sedan ... and 4 door hardtop/sport sedan.

thanks.

1961 Impala. 4 door. 283, turbo 350. Imron Midnight blue metallic with silver stripe.

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post #44 of 86 (permalink) Old 05-29-2018, 11:14 PM Thread Starter
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After a lot of study and talking to a handful of guys ...

I received Flaming River's rack/pinion with tilt steering column kit. A bit out of order, but got a comp'd $300 hose kit for Memorial Day sale.

Al

1961 Impala. 4 door. 283, turbo 350. Imron Midnight blue metallic with silver stripe.

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post #45 of 86 (permalink) Old 06-09-2018, 11:20 AM Thread Starter
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Starting to gather smaller items ... new lock set, visor brackets (both are cracked and won’t hold the large visor flat against the headliner), locking gas cap, door jamb dome light switches, and body mounting bushings (aka rubber baby buggy bumpers)


1961 Impala. 4 door. 283, turbo 350. Imron Midnight blue metallic with silver stripe.

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post #46 of 86 (permalink) Old 06-24-2018, 10:56 AM Thread Starter
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Ordered a Johns Industries Ford 9" posi-trac and wilwood disc brakes!

1961 Impala. 4 door. 283, turbo 350. Imron Midnight blue metallic with silver stripe.

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post #47 of 86 (permalink) Old 07-05-2018, 12:44 PM Thread Starter
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As I've mentioned previously ... leaning hard for the 383 stroker with electronic fuel injection.

Do I need an in-tank fuel pump? I'm seeing a replacement fuel tank/pump which is clearly different than the OEM tank. with the EFI, couldn't I get the OEM tank and simply add a "lift pump" in the supply line? Since I'm not going to have an injector pump with injectors in each cylinder, I shouldn't need that should I?


Had a '97 Tahoe (350 vortec) with an in-tank pump. What a PAIN when that thing failed. Dead on the roadside!

Thanks

1961 Impala. 4 door. 283, turbo 350. Imron Midnight blue metallic with silver stripe.

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post #48 of 86 (permalink) Old 07-05-2018, 01:44 PM
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All EFI whether it is port injection or an electronic carburetor (TBI) requires at least 36 psi to operate (most require 47 psi or more fuel pressure to make lots of power.

Your mechanical fuel pump not only doesn't have enough pressure to atomize the gas but it lacks a return line to the tank when the excess fuel that isn't burnt gets recycled.

So yes you will need a new stainless steel or plastic gas tank with an EFI high pressure high volume electric pump (that requires lots of power, so run that big wire to the back to power it).

Or you could run a carburetor that was perfected over 140 years ago. Carb makes more power, tolerates a more aggressive cam (EFI especially TBI will not run with a cam that has a lot of overlap), and it is a fourth the cost of an EFI conversion when you add the new tank, fuel pump return lines and larger diameter supply line to the price of your EFI kit.

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post #49 of 86 (permalink) Old 07-05-2018, 02:20 PM Thread Starter
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LOL ... so what's your preference, Big Dave!

Perfected? IDK about that. My experience with the Quadra Jet is that it requires a lot of maintenance to keep it properly tuned/running correctly. I'm out on that.

My first thought was a big Holley even when I was looking to keep my 283. Thanks for the info ... so I'll need the return line.

Just curious, though, for a big CFM carb, wouldn't it have the same problem when not "wide open" as the EFI? need to return unused flow? thanks.

1961 Impala. 4 door. 283, turbo 350. Imron Midnight blue metallic with silver stripe.

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post #50 of 86 (permalink) Old 07-05-2018, 03:58 PM
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I hate horsepower ratings as they are meaningless unless you know at what RPM the HP was measured. If in the case of a 540 BBC that makes over 400 foot pounds of torque just off idle and it climbs slowly to a table top 650 pounds of torque that it holds from 4,200 to 6,400 RPM how is that going to help you? Or I could tell you that it makes peak horsepower of 775 HP at 6,800 RPM. That any better? How often are you running around town at WOT?

It is torque (the twisting force that breaks axles, input shafts, ring gear teeth, etc.) that breaks parts, not peak horsepower. The transmission builders know this as well as I do; but they post horse power numbers that have no bearing on the torque rating of the tranny strictly as a sales gimmick, not as a warranty. Most good tranny rebuilders put their tranny on a reverse engine dyno (big electric motor takes the place of your engine called a Spin-Tron) and they twist it up to see if it stays together at a predetermined torque value. That is how trannies are rated.

GM takes an Alison diesel truck transmission that weights in at 330 pounds and is as big as a SBC and uses that as a 100% value (it is rated at 740 foot pounds of torque) then they assign a number like 40, 60, 65, 70, 80, 85, or 90 to a GM factory built transmission to give you an idea that it is that percentage as strong as the Alison. So a 6L90 has 90% of the torque capacity of the Alison, the 4L80 has 80% of the strength, the 700R4 is actually a 4L60 transmission after 1993 when GM changed the names of all of their transmissions to reflect torque rating.

So theoretically it can live behind a motor that has 444 foot pounds (which I can tell you it won't last long with big tires a posi and hard launches). It can live behind a 444 foot pound of torque motor if you go through it and replace the input shaft, the Sun Shell, the Sparg and the clutches), maybe. Once again depends upon weight of the car and the car's final gear ratio (the immovable object part) compared to the torque curve of the motor (the irresistible force part of the equation).

Big Dave
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