Hello, the impala SS I currently own has a Target Master 350. I’d like to replace the crate engine with an era correct L74. The question is: how difficult would it be to find this engine and at what cost? It’s a California car built in LA, so I’d like to get the correct engine with the closed positive vent system with non vented cap that was required by California back in that day due to smog regulations. I have attached a few pics of the type engine I’d like to replace my current engine with. Appreciate your help/feedback.
1964 327/300 l74
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Well if you can find someplace in California that embraced oil leaking junk yards run by a hoarder that never sold anything and only bought Chevys it would be a piece of cake Though if you found him he probably wouldn't sell you the motor because he is a hoarder). Other wise I would just put a 327 decal on your 350.
If it has center bolt valve covers the aftermarket sells an adapter that allows you to install perimeter bolt valve covers on center bolt heads. You can also find a chromed sealed oil fill tube on a Corvette restoration site; then machine a hole in the existing manifold to accept the oil fill tube.
Not exactly the same. but it may be your best hope once painted orange.
Here is a picture of a members 383 small block that started life asa 350 in his 1964. If you want it bad enough you can disguise it:
I personally put 402 decals on my BBC 582, not because I thought any one would believe it was built that way, but because I knew no one would believe my BBC was the 305 SBC that the car came with. Close enough.
Big Dave
If it has center bolt valve covers the aftermarket sells an adapter that allows you to install perimeter bolt valve covers on center bolt heads. You can also find a chromed sealed oil fill tube on a Corvette restoration site; then machine a hole in the existing manifold to accept the oil fill tube.
Not exactly the same. but it may be your best hope once painted orange.
Here is a picture of a members 383 small block that started life asa 350 in his 1964. If you want it bad enough you can disguise it:
I personally put 402 decals on my BBC 582, not because I thought any one would believe it was built that way, but because I knew no one would believe my BBC was the 305 SBC that the car came with. Close enough.
Big Dave
Ok, so I am a bit confused on my setup. The block I currently have is stamped MC27800 and from what I understand this is a 350 target master with 4 bolt main but if it were a complete 350 would it still have the oil fill tube as part of the intake manifold? The heads are definitely not double hump but it does have the 327/250 valve covers. Seems like my engine is a bit of a mutt. Thinking it has some parts from the 327 but the main block is for sure a target master 350. Thoughts? I have attached some pics for reference.
Attachments
Oil fill tube was last seen on a small block Chevy engine in 1968. In 1969 Chevy switched over to the long water pump, with brackets for the accessories that bolted to the head; instead of flapping in the breeze away from the motor.
It was to shorten the V-belt that Chevy went to a long water pump because the 1955-'68 brackets tended to throw V-belts at high RPM.
In 1987 Chevy went to center bolt valve cover (don't know when your service replacement motor was installed), and a one piece rear main seal in an attempt to keep motor oil off of your garage floor and in the motor instead. The PCV has been an integral part of Chevy motors since 1963 when the "Road Draft Tube" disappeared off of car engines.
Before that there was an oil slick in the middle of every road where cars dripped the motor oil from their engines due to blow-by.
Target Master was an effort to put people like me out of business. They sold a remanfactured engine in their shops for less money than the cost of parts and machine work to rebuild one (today they sell brand new engines for less than I can build one, so I stopped trying to fill the rebuild market and focused on building engines to drag race for customers instead). TargetMaster program was introduced in 1972 starting with remanufactured warranty return engines and then selling brand new engines with a longer warranty.
They were all 350 (same engine as a 327 only with a quarter inch longer stroke) engines with a QuadraJet manifold and carb and complying with the latest at time of manufacture emission standards. To get one to work in your car with out spark control, or a means of controlling an electric carb, or EGR valve; these would have been removed and your old parts replaced so it would run. he TargetMaster would be painted Corporate Blue so any orange parts are off of your original 327. A 300 horse 327 by the way was a base 327 motor. It would have had power pack heads not fuelie heads (the identifying camel hump markings on the end of the cylinder head). Should have had a QuadraJet four barrel carb from 1967 up and a stock hydraulic flat tappet cam. 1968 was the last year of the 283 and the 327 as the 283 became a 307 and the 327 was totally replaced by the 350 in 1969.
Big Dave
I appreciate the great feedback. I’ll continue the search, my goal is to have an as close to period correct impala as possible. Just a thought: how difficult/expensive would it be to convert to a period correct 409/340 with the closed vent system?
"W" motors are rare as hen's teeth today. As such they are expensive. You can now buy an all aluminum 409 block with dry cast iron sleeves from Bill Mitchel at World Products, add to that a set of cast aluminum Edelbrock 425 horse heads (will not accept a 348 tri-power set up, you have to use a single or dual four manifold instead) and once painted orange it would look period correct and weigh less than a small block.
Most of the 409 motors you find as survivors are truck engines with notches in the block that kills static compression. Good news is the truck block is stronger (the reason it survived), but it will require a heavier piston to fill that void caused by the notch. 348-409 rods are not much stronger than a SBC rod; which is why there are so few 409's around today. The rod bolt or cap breaks and you loose the entire short block assembly.
As mentioned above, if you want it to look original find a 175 horse 283 and swap over what you need onto your 350 TargetMaster engine. It will leave you with a two barrel motor but it will look original.
It has been my experience at a car show you could put a hemi under the hood with a 283 decal on it, and most would nod and agree that it is an all original car. The vast majority haven't a clue what is original. I have been hot rodding cars since 1953 so I have lived through all of this.
Big Dave
Most of the 409 motors you find as survivors are truck engines with notches in the block that kills static compression. Good news is the truck block is stronger (the reason it survived), but it will require a heavier piston to fill that void caused by the notch. 348-409 rods are not much stronger than a SBC rod; which is why there are so few 409's around today. The rod bolt or cap breaks and you loose the entire short block assembly.
As mentioned above, if you want it to look original find a 175 horse 283 and swap over what you need onto your 350 TargetMaster engine. It will leave you with a two barrel motor but it will look original.
It has been my experience at a car show you could put a hemi under the hood with a 283 decal on it, and most would nod and agree that it is an all original car. The vast majority haven't a clue what is original. I have been hot rodding cars since 1953 so I have lived through all of this.
Big Dave
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You could always buy an original '64 327, which are not really too hard to find, and put the parts on it from a 283 like Deadwolf has mentioned above.
I am actually building a W motor for my 63. I am going the 348 stroked out to 438 cubes. By the end of it I would probably be able to buy 4 327 engines with fresh rebuilds. Now granted I am looking at between 450 to 500 HP. Once you go to the W motor you will need a new radiator, have to find a correct fan shroud, add a return fuel line, then either find the correct ram horn exhaust manifolds or purchase headers that work for your X-frame. Also your transmission will need to be upgraded and possibly your rear end. For my conversion I will be going to a manual transmission. Right now I have the final cost estimate of building my engine, upgrading drive terrain, and then all the little odds and ends around $20,000 to $23,000. And I still have body work and interior work to do. Just to build my engine is about $12,000 to get it running on a test stand.
Now if you were just going on a budget you could probably build a 348 to look like a 409. No stroker kit or just get a 409 crank and make a 380 stroker. Get new forged pistons with about 10.8 CR and if you go with the 409 crank you will need the 409 connecting rods. Find a set of 333 casting truck heads get a valve job, minor head porting, a good cam, and get a single four barrel set up for about 6 to 8 K. Still have to go through the installation parts and pieces though. Probably be able to get 350 to 375 HP out of it in the end.
I appreciate all the great info. I think I will stick to keeping it original with the 327. I was told the original engine was a 327/300 so this I why I want to get it back with the L74. Any idea how a target master engine effects the value of the car? I am assuming an original spec motor would help the appraisal value a lot more than with the engine it has it now?
Here is a rebuilt 409 with new Edelbrock heads and dual four carbs (Edelbrock licensed Carter AFB's) complete with air cleaner (not the original enclosed air filter that is even harder to find than a 409 motor.)
https://www.ebay.com/i/201917155254?chn=ps
And another more expensive build that needs carbs and distributor water pump and a lot more stuff to run:
eBay
Front drive for either of the above that is not original but a BILLET SPECIALTIES TRU TRAC CHEVY 348/409 BLACK SERPENTINE ENGINE KIT,PULLEYS,++
https://www.ebay.com/i/271574940375?chn=ps
An all original 425 horse 409 rebuilt with factory parts $15,500:
Engines - 409 Chevy Performance
Lot cheaper to buy a 327 out of a California junk yard. The only thing I can remember being made special for an early Chevy engine destined for California was an A.I.R. pump that hung on the motor from it's own bracket. Otherwise it was the same motor as the rest of the country. The car was assembled in California out of a Fisher Body made from parts shipped there and adding a motor and tranny from Detroit's Flint, Saginaw, and Turbohydramtic divisions.
But even then it will cost money and time to prowl the yards (there are a lot of them because California is a big state) on foot to find what you want. Just how determined are you to look original?
Big Dave
https://www.ebay.com/i/201917155254?chn=ps
And another more expensive build that needs carbs and distributor water pump and a lot more stuff to run:
eBay
Front drive for either of the above that is not original but a BILLET SPECIALTIES TRU TRAC CHEVY 348/409 BLACK SERPENTINE ENGINE KIT,PULLEYS,++
https://www.ebay.com/i/271574940375?chn=ps
An all original 425 horse 409 rebuilt with factory parts $15,500:
Engines - 409 Chevy Performance
Lot cheaper to buy a 327 out of a California junk yard. The only thing I can remember being made special for an early Chevy engine destined for California was an A.I.R. pump that hung on the motor from it's own bracket. Otherwise it was the same motor as the rest of the country. The car was assembled in California out of a Fisher Body made from parts shipped there and adding a motor and tranny from Detroit's Flint, Saginaw, and Turbohydramtic divisions.
But even then it will cost money and time to prowl the yards (there are a lot of them because California is a big state) on foot to find what you want. Just how determined are you to look original?
Big Dave
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1,267 Posts
If your car is low miles, excellent condition and very original, except for the engine itself, it would effect the value somewhat. But if it's a typical good old car in decent condition, it wouldn't matter a whole lot. Value speaking, this could be a case where finding another engine, having it rebuilt and set up like you have stated, etc, could very well cost more than the value that it would increase. I would say that the bottom line decision should be on what you would like it to be.
It’s definitely in great shape all original except the engine. It’s also a true SS convertible with desirable 918 paint, ACC codes EX2MPS3C5W. Idk how true this is but speaking to someone they stated in its current condition is worth between 25-30k but with an era correct engine it could increase the value to 50k+. This is what originally sparked my interest. My intentions are to keep the car in the family for generations to come (as original classics are becoming rarer and rarer). Here are a few pics so you can see what the vehicle looks like.
Attachments
To determine if it is an SS just look at the trim tag. If it is an SS it will start out with the word Style 64-1467 Body. Bear in mind that the SS is body style not a performance option. If you look at Old Reliable Super Stock race car you will note that it was a Biscayne two door sedan with a 409 425 horse and Borg-Warner four speed but little else. It has a bench seat, and little else (not an SS). The SS was available with a six cylinder (if your trim tag has 1367 it left the factory with a six cylinder).
What you are proposing is a fine ambition. If it is going to be a driver for cruising with the family the motor's originality isn't all that important, and a 350 makes more torque than a 327 to offer better acceleration. It can be dressed up to appear closer to a 1964 SBC, but you will have to go back to a Rochester 4GC carb, and manifold, as well as bore a hole in the block to accommodate the air oil separator that was dropped in 1969 to enclose the PCV system in the valve cover (less machine work involved in preparing the block, which saved GM money). Since you don't have the riser cast at the back of the block on a 1963-'68 for the external PCV plumbing you will be introducing an oil leak. But it is the only way to disguise a large journal 1969-'86 4 inch bore block to appear to look like a 1955-'68 small journal 265-283-302-327 block (the 1968 327 as a 350 large journal block with a 307 crankshaft fitted and balanced just for the 327 rotating assembly).
If you look at the changes made every year in the evolution of the small block engine you can tell what year it is just by the changes made from the original 265; though they all look alike from the outside (mostly). You can find a book that lists the interchange parts with pictures in your library to check out exactly what your engine should have on it for 1964.
Hagerty has your car running from $18,00 to 35,000 for a full frame off Concours white glove chalk mark correct restoration
https://www.hagerty.com/apps/valuationtools/1964-chevrolet-impala
I think your evaluation is a bit optimistic at best. If you think a sale of your car will make money it probably will not happen if you put a lot of money into making it look "original".
Big Dave
What you are proposing is a fine ambition. If it is going to be a driver for cruising with the family the motor's originality isn't all that important, and a 350 makes more torque than a 327 to offer better acceleration. It can be dressed up to appear closer to a 1964 SBC, but you will have to go back to a Rochester 4GC carb, and manifold, as well as bore a hole in the block to accommodate the air oil separator that was dropped in 1969 to enclose the PCV system in the valve cover (less machine work involved in preparing the block, which saved GM money). Since you don't have the riser cast at the back of the block on a 1963-'68 for the external PCV plumbing you will be introducing an oil leak. But it is the only way to disguise a large journal 1969-'86 4 inch bore block to appear to look like a 1955-'68 small journal 265-283-302-327 block (the 1968 327 as a 350 large journal block with a 307 crankshaft fitted and balanced just for the 327 rotating assembly).
If you look at the changes made every year in the evolution of the small block engine you can tell what year it is just by the changes made from the original 265; though they all look alike from the outside (mostly). You can find a book that lists the interchange parts with pictures in your library to check out exactly what your engine should have on it for 1964.
Hagerty has your car running from $18,00 to 35,000 for a full frame off Concours white glove chalk mark correct restoration
https://www.hagerty.com/apps/valuationtools/1964-chevrolet-impala
I think your evaluation is a bit optimistic at best. If you think a sale of your car will make money it probably will not happen if you put a lot of money into making it look "original".
Big Dave
It’s a true SS convertible VIN 41467. The valuation you provided is for a non SS L32 hard top impala. The same valuation tool you utilized puts a value from $40,200 to $92,000 for the same car with an L30 and a value of $41,800 to $97,200 for an L74. Additionally, Hemmings has 2 L74 41467s listed for sale at $58,500 and $59,900 respectively with less ACCs so my evaluation is not optimistic at best IMO.
One may tell if the car was an original V8 is by the model number. 1867 is a V8 Impala convertible, 1767 is a six cylinder. But it won't tell anyone what V8. A big block had certain features one may find on the car, but the small blocks are not so fortunate. The car could have been a 283 or 327. No way to really tell w/o reliable documentation. Some one saying it was a 327/300 is simply an unverified statement. I would not rely on it.
Your assumption that; ' I am assuming an original spec motor would help the appraisal value a lot more than with the engine it has it now?'; is not one I would make. IF you found a 'numbers matching' block, that would mean a little to some (not me, I only own my '63 to DRIVE it). Just simply swapping to an 'original spec motor' (remember one does not know what V8 to 'spec'), would not mean squat to me. The 350 in it now likely drives 'better' because it likely has more low end torque than the 327. Also, it looks (from the pics) the car is a power glide. That 2 speed transmission NEEDS gobs of low end torque to get out of it's own way. From a driving stand point, the 350 is likely a better match than a 327.
I have no experience with the Target crate engines, and have no idea how the one you have was built. But, if the car runs well, I would not futz with it for appearance/added value (there is no added value in my opinion). If you have your heart set on an 'original spec' 327/300; the heart wants what the heart wants. Just do it because it's what you want, not because of any fantasy of increased value.
Just try to be helpful; NO criticism.
Pete
Thanks for all the feedback I think I’ll start by talking to local car guys and see where my search takes me. I’d love to preserve the full history of the car and I just feel a GM generic target master, although good engines, (depending who you ask) tarnish the nostalgia.
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The car sure is nice. There is a chance you could fine the original Build Sheet under the Rear Seat. That would tell you what engine it had for sure. Even without it though, and if were my car, I agree, I would be looking for a '64 327 for it. Finding one made a little before the car was would be a bonus. It may not increase the value as much as stated above, but yes, it sure would add to it. Although if I did find one and installed it, I still would reveal it to the new owner, if I ever sold it.
Thanks I appreciate it! I don’t get to drive her as often as I’d like but when I do I turn heads everywhere I go. I need to install some rear seatbelts so I’ll look out for the build sheet. And I agree if I were to ever sell her I’d disclose the information to the new owner but believe me if I go through the trouble of replacing with an era correct 327 she’ll stay parked in my garage (covered) as long as I’m around. You mentioned finding an engine made before the car was would be an added bonus, could you elaborate?
Engine parts were cast two to four weeks before the car assembly date because it takes time to convert raw castings into machined parts awaiting assembly.
In addition to machine work the rotating assembly is weighed and sorted so that all eight piston and rods and piston rings are similar in weight (there is enough variation in weight that you could have eight light and eight heavy parts with ten to twelve weight breaks in between).
This way all of the separate pistons of one weight go in one bin to be transported to the assembly line at Flint. There the motor is slapped together out of inspected and presorted parts in under eight minutes.
When you build tens of thousands of motors a week you can not spend time polishing parts or masking off parts to paint them the way restores do it. It is mass assembly. The motors were then shipped by rail to the assembly plant in LA.
NOTE how careful the painters were in staying inside the lines while coloring the engine, and think of a restoration guy obsesing with over spray.
If there was a strike the year your car was made (such as occurred in 1969), the parts might have a build date of up to six months in advance as the managers knew that they were not going to get any machined parts or fresh castings and the managers and service workers all assembled cars while the union workers walked the line out front.
Big Dave
In addition to machine work the rotating assembly is weighed and sorted so that all eight piston and rods and piston rings are similar in weight (there is enough variation in weight that you could have eight light and eight heavy parts with ten to twelve weight breaks in between).
This way all of the separate pistons of one weight go in one bin to be transported to the assembly line at Flint. There the motor is slapped together out of inspected and presorted parts in under eight minutes.
When you build tens of thousands of motors a week you can not spend time polishing parts or masking off parts to paint them the way restores do it. It is mass assembly. The motors were then shipped by rail to the assembly plant in LA.
NOTE how careful the painters were in staying inside the lines while coloring the engine, and think of a restoration guy obsesing with over spray.
If there was a strike the year your car was made (such as occurred in 1969), the parts might have a build date of up to six months in advance as the managers knew that they were not going to get any machined parts or fresh castings and the managers and service workers all assembled cars while the union workers walked the line out front.
Big Dave
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